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 Are submission finishes in extremis?

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Are you against submission finishes?
Yes
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
No
100%
 100% [ 10 ]
In different
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 10
 

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Finnegan Wakefield
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PostSubject: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 8:33 am

Alright, I will try and get straight to the point so this won't be a long read, but I want people who read this topic to either debate for or against the subject, as it is something that weighs on my mind on occasion, mostly because of a personal bias to my character.

If you came from a different circle than the people who came to form OWA, perhaps your experiences with this topic are vastly different. Regardless, your input is appreciated regardless. In the fed that the majority of the original OWA members came from ever used a submission to finish a match. Regardless if your finisher was a submission or not, it seemed to be something either the heads or the writers were opposed to having unless someone no-showed the match or performed, for the want of a better word, poorly in the promo battle. The original premise of the Finnegan Wakefield character was that he was an excellent catch wrestler and stiff striker (mostly kicks and knees to the head) to set up for his submission finishers (which have changed a few times in the year and a half I have been playing him.) Because of how little submissions actually get used as the finish, I have removed a vast number of holds simply because they weren't being used.

With this in mind, out of 34 victories I have collected in that time, 8 were by submission, and 7 of them came against guys who no-showed the promo battle or performed under par in them. The single one that occurred against an active and strong promoer was for storyline purposes, and that raised these questions more in my head while thinking of this topic.

So, I ask these questions to you, put yourself in the shoes of a writer or a handler when it comes to them.
Do you feel that submission finishers make your/other characters look weak in defeat?
Should they only be used as a plot device to extend or culminate storylines and feuds?
Should people just not bother having submission finishers if it is something that is discouraged from being used as a match finish?


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Gareth Cason

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 8:40 am

As of yet, both of Cason's wins have come by submission. But I surely see what you're saying, I feel as if this is because if someone promoted similarly in quality to you, a submission loss feels like they were dominated in some way, in wrestling, if someone wins clean by submission, it's usually a sign that their being booked really heavily in the dominant direction, don't you think?
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HENDRIX

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 8:55 am

I feel anyone writing a match that views submissions to be more diminishing than a pinfall are rather silly. Both result in losses, both give a negative and positive boost in momentum for the victor and loser. I feel if you have a submission heavy edit, like Wakefield for example, the match writer should feel more inclined to use the submission finish(especially in Finn's case when his whole moveset is very much limb damaging offense used to set things up). It all depends on the character of course though, but when I go into writing a match I usually have a story in head of how I want the match to go. If Wrestler A is going over and has a submission finish with a wide variety of limb damaging moves, I'm more inclined to write them working over a limb throughout the match then attempting the submission. However if it's a case of a character just having a submission finish with no moves that work over the limb on their moveset, I'm more inclined to write their other finishers as the finish.
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CM Nas

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 10:45 am

First off I want to thank Finnegan for this thread, this was a genius idea that I would have never even considered. It's a great chance to educate those who still are not quite sure how our style of e-feds work to learn some things as well as those who have been around, but have little to no knowledge of the writing process and the logic we use in determining not just winners and losers, but why matches end a certain way and who moves on in what direction following any match that takes place from a week to week basis.

I'm probably not the person to be throwing around my two cents for this whole thing, but I feel hearing the answer from one of the horses' mouths would do a lot of people who are wondering about this some good. So first off, like most aspects of wrestling, Submissions are used for multiple purposes in writing matches for e-feds. Not just one in particular.

First thing is first, Submissions for the most part are a more dominant showing than pinfall victories most times. But I think what it is personally for me is, Pinfalls are more effective in squashes at making someone look dominant, where as submissions are more effective at making someone look dominant in a close bout. Of course that depends on how the submission is written too. If the submission is written to make someone tap out immediately without struggle, that could be for multiple reasons. Either one participant just is not on the level of their opponent when it comes to submission prowess, like if Bad News Bart who's more of a striker/power guy were to get tangled up by Finnegan Wakefield who's entire game plan is to eventually wrap someone up in one of his many deadly submission holds. It wouldn't do him much good to struggle. 

Versus a situation like Gareth V Nas last week where Nas could have struggled in the submission for longer, but was chosen not to in the writing process for multiple reasons in itself. One was to try and preserve Nas' health as he has his big championship match coming up and to allow him to be healthy enough to not miss Senn's comeback and still be a part of the attack on Rami. Just as much though was after a long and grueling match like that, the last place Nas wanted to be was on the receiving end of a deadly submission hold from a former MMA Fighter who specialized in said style, Nas even tho he is well versed in all styles of wrestling himself, would much rather throw in the towel immediately than attempt to free himself from Gareth's Cobra Clutch with Body scissors. That is for a specific reason and that is to build up Gareth's reputation as a deadly grappler and to add a unique aura not just to him, but to his submission as well. 

Just like how there are those Finishers that no one kicks out of, there are those submissions that no one breaks free of or survives whatsoever. People like Finn, Gareth, and Aria are 3 great examples of characters whom this applies for as they are all submission specialists. While all being extremely different characters from one another, and being capable of doing far more than just tying someone into a pretzel, they all specialize in this one art form within the ring, and we writers more than recognize that and wish to bring that to the forefront as much as possible, hence why the matches those three have won have gone the ways that they have up to this point and will most definitely continue into the future.

Now the notion that you "look like a bitch" (stating this much more informally than was stated by the thread creator) for being beaten by submission on a weekly edition of Kingdom is not something I believe in as a writer and something I have never believed in. Because then we as writers would be forced to "accommodate" for people's feelings and opinions. Which would force us to literally cuck people's movesets and restrict what they are allowed to defeat people with. I believe just about every character who wants to be taken legitimately and seriously as a true main event talent in e-feds should have at least 2 of the 3 types of moves as finishers. Standard Grapple or Strike Finisher, these are your RKOs, F-5s, Superkicks, Clotheslines from Hell, etc. These types of finishers should be stock on everyone except for very few exceptions like if you're either a Giant or the smallest of the cruiserweights. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle tho, so it doesn't apply to the masses. Finisher types 2 and 3 aren't mandatory for all, but are greatly appreciated on all as it expands the horizons of what you can do in a match greatly! Those being High Flying/Diving/Springboard Finishers as well as you would have expected from the thread, Submission Finishers. Before breaking down either one of these, these both add SO MUCH to a person's moveset and performance style than you could ever imagine. 

I'll start with High Flying moves. Naturally these are your 450 Splashes, Frog Splashes, Corkscrew Moonsaults, Diving Elbow Drops, and what have you. Arial Moves add a whole new tool to your arsenal, using the ring in ways those who don't dive could never take advantage of. I know this seems obvious to most of us, but it's something so many of us sleep on mentally when it comes to our character usage in matches. It gives you that high risk, high reward, almost last ditch effort type of move to use in big matches to create that moment of suspense. "HE LEAPS OFF THE TOP FOR THE PHOENIX SPLASH!" and before the next part is read, you're in the back of your mind questioning all the scenarios that could play out. He misses and his opponent takes advantage, He lands it and he wins his big match. Or He lands it and his opponent survives the pinfall somehow, whether it be outside interference, or he just breaks free by either kicking out or rope break, etc. 

And finally submissions themselves. These are your Liontamers, Sharpshooters, Figure Four Leglocks, Crossfaces, etc. These finishers are used a lot more similarly to the Diving Finishers. They add a whole new world of possibilities to the writing and booking of those who use them. As Axl excellently pointed out with the example of Finn, Finn's whole moveset is damaging limbs, tearing away at his opponents and slowly eroding their defenses before finally setting up with one of his submission holds and snapping them to pieces or forcing them to tap at his will. Now no one will ever be as much of a specialist in the art as him, so you don't have to make your entire moveset revolve around the style, but just from having a submission that for example, targets the head. It changes the idea of why you use certain moves you would have already possessed. Such as something as simple as a DDT. Now when you do a DDT, it's not just to hurt someone. It's with the intent of softening their head for whatever submission you have planned for them later, Like a Hell's Gate. It adds a whole new purpose behind every movement you make within the ring. 

At the end of the day, the main reason I encourage the use of these moves is to make everyone more complete superstars and add multiple dynamics to your arsenals. As a main event level talent you NEED it. Very few break through by being masters of one particular style rather than being versed in all. Even those who supposedly are masters in one field, like Finn once again, are more than capable at performing in different ways, which helps them catch opponents off guard because it's unexpected. I hope I didn't confuse people even more with all of this information. If I overloaded you at all please reach out to me individually and ask for a more simplistic answer. Or if you guys EVER have questions about the booking process, I am open to all questions and eager to connect with my roster of guys and gals. I love you all and want this place to be as enjoyable for every single one of you. So please if questions in the back of your head are preventing you from enjoying this place to the fullest extent, get those questions out to someone who can answer them all, aka the rest of The Council and myself. Hell you could even ask seasoned members of our community like Kenny Drake, Aria Jaxon, or Jacob Senn if you are too intimidated to speak to one of us directly. I'd like to think over the past 10 years or so of analyzing and studying this industry closely I've developed a wealth of knowledge to share with others, but you know the old saying. The more you know, The more you don't know. I don't have anywhere close to all the answers, especially since this business is always expanding and evolving. So please if you think I'm wrong in anything I've stated, do not be afraid to constructively inform me of where I may have made a mistake in my analysis. Thank you all very much and have a great day!


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André Virgo

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 10:47 am

I think I've won a match with a submission finisher once this run and I believe it was a squash match.
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Bishop

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 10:56 am

MI'm not against, not even really indifferent. Submissions and holds can be used in a variety of ways, some to even benefit a story, or ad an unsure finish to a matcj. Submissions don't have to be by the guy tapping out, some guys are against that as maybe their guy is a no giving up, fit til the end. 

For example my guy's gimmick means he'll fight against tapping, and can be submitted by being choked the fuck out. Another person's character could lead them to be leading the match confidently, but once a person sinks in a leg lock or an armbar, their confidence drastically drops and they tap. It dosen't mean they look weak, submissions manuvers are danegrous fucking things, and not tapping out of an RNC means the person's throat could be fucking crushed, or their arm being locked in a kimura means it gets snapped and they're out for months. 

Like Nas said, some finishers could be used to soften snd gas a guy out. Get a guy in a Guillotine Choke for even a few seconds, let alone a tense, long defense sequence (if a writer chooses to write such), they sure as fuck won't be moving right for the rest of the match. Not only can segments like these end the match, but if they're paced right with the show, there's no telling if they'll tap or not since submissions are an unexpected, less common finish. 

It's just how you use it really, I think they're fine.
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ScottyAdams

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 11:50 am

I like them tbh --- Like, I have the submissions for Adams listed as common or semi-common moves, but either one of his "semi-common" ones can easily end a match --- plus, it also shows definiteness in the winner, which I have always liked. Balancing them in with pinfalls always adds to a character's depth too, as it shows that they can be well-versed in a wide range of styles and are able to adapt to any situation --- plus, submissions are versatile enough to be used in the general scope of a match as well, as a tool to wear down the opponent. Like, Adams tapping against Bishop made sense, not just in the context of the match, but Bishop is a MMA fighter, so he would know how to position it so that there was no other outcome but the tap out, especially the second time he locked it in.
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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 12:57 pm

My take is this: Unless you're playing the role of someone like The Undertaker, you should be vulnerable to tapping out. That's it. I remember during my original stint as Judas in EAW I was able to make most of my opponents tap out thanks to the writers understanding and liking what I wanted out of the character. If it's an exhibition match or a match with no real heat or rivalry to it, it should absolutely be able to finish via submission. To this day I'll never understand the idea of submissions making someone "look weak". If Batista tapped out to the Walls of Jericho would he look weak? No. If Randy Orton tapped out to Samoa Joe's Coquina Clutch would he look weak? No. Both men are masters of their submission hold and should be treated as such and, in the case of someone like yourself, Finn, all of your submissions should be treated as deadly in any given situation. I understand if someone comes in as an alleged submission master and their promos aren't up to par that a writer might not want them to win with a submission but those people are few and far between.
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kennydrake

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PostSubject: Re: Are submission finishes in extremis?   5/7/2018, 1:12 pm

As someone that has written multiple types of endings, I will say a Submission seems more entertaining, by it adds the same amount of drama as a pinfall. As Nas said, if a finisher is hit, there are multiple endings to that (pin, kickout, ref bump, etc) and the same goes with subs (tap, escape, ropes, etc.). 

I like em both. 

Sorry, I don’t think I actually answered the question.
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